Interview: Millie Manders on how to be anti-billionaire - In-Common

By Laura McCarthy. Photos: Tina K.

“I’m late. I lost track of time.”

I’ve been waiting for my meeting with Millie Manders for ten minutes and the late start is no surprise; she is, and always has been, a busy person, what with numerous gigs, tours, interviews, and advocacy to fill her days. She smiles now, surrounded by shelves bursting with books and records, a small slither of insight into the kind of person she is, into what she holds dear: she’s an artist.

Millie, who is coming to The Joiners, Southampton, on Wednesday, April 8th, has been making music since she was little, with a diverse background of musical skills. Having performed at an array of events and venues (I have good memories from seeing cross-genre punk band, Millie Manders and the Shutup at Beautiful Days Festival and supporting Less Than Jake and Skinny Lister), Manders is a master of her craft and has good relationships with others in the scene; when I tell her that my friend Vez (pianist in Wonk Unit, solo as X-Ray Vez) asked me to say ‘hi’ when doing the interview, Millie beams: “she’s a peach. Tell her I say ‘hi’ too.”

Whilst on the topic, we discuss how Wonk Unit frontman Alex has recently announced his intention to go cold on social media and set up a mailing list to keep fans in the loop instead, an act which Millie describes as “incredibly brave” since social media is so prevalent and seemingly necessary for bands to promote their music. On the one hand, social media seems obligatory. At the same time, when algorithms are designed to make us angry and are often skewed to promote right-wing content, Manders questions the morality of these platforms.

“Yes, he’s brave to take that stance against the war machine – because that’s what he’s doing, isn’t he? He has always had a massive DIY ethic and a huge DIY following. So, I don’t think it’s necessarily going to harm Wonk to do it that way because he’s got such an underground fan base from so many years prior to needing social media and algorithms and all the rest of it to get your music out there.

“I think for a lot of bands, and I include myself in this, it’s a difficult choice to stay on these platforms. Like, I have to wrestle with myself for staying there; I want to spread a message and it lets me do that – the amount of people that have come to me and said, ‘I saw your Facebook story about Gaza and it’s changed my mind’ or ‘I saw your music video called Me Too and I had no idea that the statistics were so high for femicide and sexual abuse; it’s made me rethink how I interact when I see misogyny happening in the streets’.

“And so, as much as I hate the people that own these platforms and what they are using them for, I have to weigh up that idea of… if I wasn’t there, I wouldn’t be having those conversations so much, those beautiful moments where people are interacting with the messages that I’m putting out. Those moments are so invaluable when you’re trying to be an activist yourself and you’re trying to put positivity into a world that literally feels like it’s on fire right now.”

Manders is an activist. That much is clear. If you look her up on Facebook or Instagram, you will find a treasure trove of videos and posts which address issues around the world. At the time of writing this, her most recent video on Instagram is actually a clip of her feeding pigeons whilst in a bowler hat, but scroll past a few sillier videos or promotional posts and she’s discussing support of independent venues, mental health, and older women in the music industry. Click on her stories, and she is sharing content about women’s right to choose, the inhumane treatment of animals, and acts which violate human rights in Gaza, Iran, America, Sudan – the list goes on.

I am unexpectedly moved to tears by her words, what she discusses, and the passion with which she speaks during our conversation.

Light hearted talk can soon turn serious.

Manders details the extent of the atrocities in Sudan and the Congo, atrocities which many are unaware are even happening. What she shares is so harrowing and so grotesque; she describes the shocking sexual assault and violence which is taking place, as “you could see the blood in the streets from the satellites imaging in Sudan when an entire village of thousands were slaughtered”.

This is another reason she keeps social media, so that she can hear these stories, advising that if “you follow people who are in those countries on social media, you can see what’s actually happening,” as this is a way to keep up to date on what is happening around the world, when it isn’t seen in mainstream media.

She continues, “mainstream media will hide the fact that something like three out of four people agree that Palestine shouldn’t be under occupation. And, within those three, you’ll find at least two of those probably know about the other genocides in Congo and Sudan. And they’re standing up against those as well. There are more people that are awake and fighting than there have ever been in the UK for justice and humanity.

“We are seeing people do that in the streets when they’re getting carried away by police and when they are willing to go on hunger strike for the rights of other people. But that’s an incredibly scary thing and it can seem like an uphill battle.

“That’s because the western media, the powers that be, the right-wing billionaires, they don’t want to lose their privilege. Our British media feeds into that fear and keeps people thinking that something’s going to be taken away from you if you allow someone to have the same rights as you.

“I think that’s one of the biggest barriers that we face at the moment, but I’m still hopeful because those three out of four people want change, want actual equality, want to see a world where everyone is homed, has human rights, has food and water.”

But, other than these acts of protest, how else can we fight for justice? How can we make small steps towards a safer society? And, if we’re keeping social media, how else can we be anti-billionaire? Millie has some suggestions.

Firstly, she rails against large companies and advocates for the public to cancel subscriptions to giant, corporate machines, encouraging people to instead pay into smaller businesses which offer the same services.

“If everybody cancelled their streaming subscriptions, the music would still be there, but it would halt money going towards creating AI war technology that’s being field tested in Gaza, right?

“They’d only have the money that they’re farming from the royalties, right? So, if all subscriptions suddenly stopped, musicians would be able to go, ‘this platform’s crap – see you later’, right? So, the onus is unfortunately on the consumer.

“And you know what? CDs and DVDs are like 99p on Magpie. So, build up your DVD collection instead and get rid of some of those subscriptions.

“I’m calling for people to stop paying into those platforms and go for something smaller. Go for something like TIDAL, you know, where that money isn’t currently being funnelled into something grotesque and is actually paying artists more.”

Millie urges people to use their power as consumers. Consider which companies you support and the business practices behind them. How ethical are they? Is there an alternative?

It can seem like the public has no power against larger forces; Manders expresses that, in the face of global news stories about billionaires in power being unpunished for crimes, we have been so beaten down, for so long, that we believe we have no power.

“What can one person do? Well, one person with a million other people can do a lot. Everybody has the power as a consumer. Going into a supermarket, picking up an avocado and seeing that it’s from Israel, then choosing one next to it from Spain: that’s an easy choice. I realise to say that means that you might need to be able to afford the extra cost, it might be that 10p more expensive. And who the hell am I, having an avocado anyway? But there are choices like that across the board.

Millie argues that small acts of activism make a difference, especially if you are mentally or physically prevented from partaking in larger acts.

“You don’t have to go to a protest but would you be willing to go and put some flyers about a protest through some doors? What could you do within your community? Could you go and help out at your local soup kitchen? Or, when there’s people outside your local hotel shouting at migrants fleeing war, could you send a box of fruit to the immigrants staying there?”

She also urges people to be empathetic and ask those with opposing views questions about why they feel the way they do.

“We need to talk to each other but it doesn’t always happen because it feels confrontational. One thing British people do not like is confrontation. We have been told to have a stiff upper lip, to go to the doctors as little as possible, to put up with small pains, to turn the other cheek if someone bullies us (especially as women).

“I do have an ability to just be like, ‘I’m going to call you out on that’. But when I have found it uncomfortable, ask questions instead, and keep asking questions until you can get down to their core belief and why they believe that. And if they can’t give you a real reason as to why they believe something, question that as well. ‘You don’t seem to have an answer for why you believe this. Where did you hear it? What are your sources?’. You know, that kind of thing.

“And the conversation might get to a point where they get angry and you can just cut it off at that point (or they block you, so it’s cut off anyway). Or, hopefully, and these are rarer, you start to have a real conversation with somebody.”

Finally, Manders touches upon how consideration of AI use in daily life should be a priority for those who want to be ‘anti-billionaire’.

“We know that it’s not going anywhere because it has cost billions of pounds and, when people spend billions of pounds on something, they hold on to it for dear life. But I do not like it. I don’t like the fact that millions of AI songs pop up every day, stealing money from artists.

“Then, you’ve got the fact that people aren’t going to lose jobs, they are losing jobs. I spoke to a graphic designer, not 3 weeks ago, who is now doing a PGCE since he can’t be a graphic designer because AI has taken all of that work from him. You know, he was a full-time graphic designer. He was very well paid. AI graphic design is frankly gross. It’s not even good artwork. So that infuriates me.

“Then, you’ve got the environmental impact on the people that are around those stations. We know that those stations are creating putrid water for people in the immediate vicinity.

“On top of that, we had the the AI issue of sexual assault towards women and children. There were warnings about this several years ago when there were plenty of tech people saying ‘don’t put images of your children online’. AI is already harvesting it, which means it can be sexualised.”

With all of these complex and upsetting issues on her mind, it can be hard to get the balance right between activism and self-preservation. Millie is an advocate for mental health, with many of the songs from Millie Manders and the Shutup centralising the topic. It is something she has spoken about before on her platforms and in interviews. She expresses that she has gotten caught out before, “especially two years ago, when October 7th happened, I immediately got into the train of talking about all of these things, witnessing things that nobody should have to experience nor witness. I allowed myself to go down the rabbit hole that meant I was having night terrors every night and I would be waking up crying. But I didn’t stop doing it because I wanted to make sure that these voices were heard.

“I quickly realised that there was going to come a point where I wasn’t going to be able to do any of it because I was making myself sick by trying to do it all. Someone said to me that there was an analogy about a cup and your cup is your energy. Like a cup, you are full of energy, full of restorative liquid to give out. But it is not infinite. It can be refilled, but only if you allow it to be. If you let that cup run empty, you have nothing left to give. You have to allow spaces where you can be refilled in order to give more; I’ve tried to live by that more… to have the energy to write music about what I see, or share the stories of these people as much as I can, or do more research and still witness the things that are happening, but at a safer rate for myself.

“Recognise when you are becoming too tired to continue the work that you really want to do. And allow yourself, even if it’s only small spaces, to rest and come back to it so you can continue that fight, or you won’t be able to fight at all.”

For more information about the Millie Manders and the Shutup tour and to buy tickets, visit: millie-manders.com

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